Dr. Lindsey Sasaki Kogasaka is an interdisciplinary trained scholar with a PhD and master's in international education from New York University, passionate about the intersection of international relations, political and cultural identity and cross-cultural exchange and training. Her work has tackled the Asian diaspora communities in Latin America, specifically Brazil and Peru and Latin American communities in Japan. Lindsey is a gifted polyglot and as someone who is deeply committed to people in community, she serves on various boards, committees and organizations that invest in next generation leaders and creates opportunities to connect international visitors and scholars with people in the greater Los Angeles area. She most recently brought all of this to bear as a senior researcher on a groundbreaking project of the Nippon foundation and the Japanese American national museum. Examining the concept of Nikkei identity among young adults around the world, Lindsey continues to encourage and impact the lives of college students to take their leap and first steps in an international journey.
Dr. Lindsey Sasaki Kogasaka is an interdisciplinary trained scholar with a PhD and master's in international education from New York University, passionate about the intersection of international relations, political and cultural identity and cross-cultural exchange and training.
Her work has tackled the Asian diaspora communities in Latin America, specifically Brazil and Peru and Latin American communities in Japan. Lindsey is a gifted polyglot and as someone who is deeply committed to people in community, she serves on various boards, committees and organizations that invest in next generation leaders and creates opportunities to connect international visitors and scholars with people in the greater Los Angeles area.
She most recently brought all of this to bear as a senior researcher on a groundbreaking project of the Nippon foundation and the Japanese American national museum. Examining the concept of Nikkei identity among young adults around the world, Lindsey continues to encourage and impact the lives of college students to take their leap and first steps in an international journey.
And she does this as assistant director of study abroad at her alma mater Pomona college.
Pod Episode 5: Lindsey Sasaki Kogasaka
Introduction [00:00:00]
[00:00:00]Mya: Welcome to Off-Track On-Purpose.
I am pleased to introduce our guest today. Dr. Lindsey Sasaki Kogasaka.
She is an [00:00:15] interdisciplinary trained scholar with a PhD and master's in international education from New York university,passionate about the intersection of international relations, political and cultural identity and cross-cultural exchange and training.
Her work has tackled the [00:00:30] Asian diaspora communities in Latin America, specifically Brazil and Peru and Latin American communities in Japan.
Lindsey is a gifted polyglot and as someone who is deeply committed to people in community, she serves on various boards, committees and [00:00:45] organizations that invest in next generation leaders and creates opportunities to connect international visitors and scholars with people in the greater Los Angeles area.
She most recently brought all of this to bear as a senior researcher on a groundbreaking project of the Nippon foundation and the Japanese American national [00:01:00] museum. Examining the concept of Nikkei identity among young adults around the world, Lindsey continues to encourage and impact the lives of college students to take their leap and first steps in an international journey.
And she does this as assistant director of study abroad at her [00:01:15] Alma mater Pomona college.
Pre-flection [00:01:16]
Britt: There's a lot about our conversation with Lindsay that I'm looking forward to. This idea of an interdisciplinary PhD is in itself fascinating. That was something I considered and when [00:01:30] I was discouraged to do something as radical as take a non-disciplinary doctoral direction, geography was presented as perhaps a nice option, which was just naturally inherently interdisciplinary. And so of course you have [00:01:45] to cobble together your own curriculum, and because the idea of a canon an intellectual Canon is so central to any these traditional doctoral lines of study. What happens when you pursue a PhD that [00:02:00] doesn't have that? And in some ways that's my experience. That's one of the attachments disciplines have to that idea of a canon. And of course there's all kinds of problems with just canonical thinking, but what does it mean just from an intellectual [00:02:15] arc to pursue a interdisciplinary PhD?
Mya: I had a similar experience when. I was deciding what to pursue PhD and whether it was, international education and something like that, or a traditional one. And my advisor told me [00:02:30] specifically that, you would have more options with a traditional PhD.
And I think with something as new of a field, as international education too, is interesting, Because there aren't a lot of departments where you could actually [00:02:45] teach that what you're talking about, a Canon and having gone through that master's program and international education to NYU, it's a lot more practical than what you think of as a traditional advanced [00:03:00] study for something.
So I wonder getting a PhD in a relatively new field, It could be seen as somewhat of a risk. So I'm interested in the process in which she made that decision and sort of what was, the idea beyond that for her.
Britt: Even [00:03:15] just confronting that real risk of if you invest this amount of time in this doctoral degree, there's going to be a pretty big swath of the Academy that you are not going to have access to because you are, you're not trained in said [00:03:30] discipline. So you don't know the discipline, right? I experienced that in a slightly different way coming from a discipline that is been dwindling in its presence in the Academy over the last decades for probably good reason if we're being honest. But just [00:03:45] even like that, keeping that in your mind is okay, I'm investing all this time. I'm doing all this stuff. And in where do I land? And that tension between the pursuit of something you're curious about and that you understand to be worthwhile and the where's this going to help land me, [00:04:00] yes, that, that is something I'm very curious about.
Mya: it's interesting because, part of the process of pursuing your graduate degree Is not just amassing or accumulating knowledge and skills, to be a part of this broader Academy in terms of [00:04:15] what they train you to do.
But it's also the experience and the accolades From her written bio, she was a Fulbright scholar and, she was part of this large research project. And, there is something about the [00:04:30] personal motivations of pursuing these things that you're passionate about, but also if you're doing it with excellence in such a way that you're also getting recognized for that. So then where does that also help you land if you don't have a Canon where you [00:04:45] can particularly sit, but you still have all of these accolades that are recognized.
Because then there's this tension between what is the priority for the Academy to recognize the value of someone's contribution, whether it's as researcher or [00:05:00] as, an academic or, as a teacher professor.
Britt: I think what you're naming and touching on there is so important because I don't know that it's unique to the Academy. I remember having a conversation with a fellow grad student when [00:05:15] I was pursuing the PhD and we were talking a little bit about how the system provides you with just enough recognition to feel validated in your choices, whether that's as small as receiving an a, on a paper, [00:05:30] even though you are a grad student and, pretty much everybody gets it.
But everything from that to receiving an award, to receiving a a research grant there's just enough to validate your current life choice. And I hadn't really thought about it [00:05:45] like that, but when they framed it as just enough, I thought that was useful because A lot of this recognition, that one is getting in this academic search, but you can't really sustain yourself on that.
It's not a significant financial windfall especially if we're talking about something, like getting an a, on a [00:06:00] paper, it's like a little nice stroke to the intellectual ego for a brief moment. and at the same time, I don't know that's really leading to some professional outcomes.
it's just an interesting thing, which again I don't know that's unique to being a graduate student or being in the Academy. Probably saying being in the [00:06:15] Academy is too broad because I don't know that these full-time faculty experienced the same thing.
Mya: I hope we have a chance to go a little bit deeper with that too, because part of this accumulation, is also what is [00:06:30] outwardly indicative of quote unquote success, and a successful graduate career or a successful start to whatever your career is and also what goes with that success is the perception on the outside [00:06:45] that, in that process, it was also positive. And so there also seems to be, this question that I have is that, oftentimes you might hear people who have been quote, unquote identified outwardly as successful. expose, a [00:07:00] books or something that says they were miserable the whole time.
but from what I have seen and heard from Lindsay in the past is that she has had a pretty positive experience in graduate school too. So I think that for me and for the audience, [00:07:15] that also that narrative I think is also important to share, so that people know that it doesn't always have to be, the horror stories that you can have a positive experience and be successful and do it well [00:07:30] without it having to be tragic not saying that it's not hard. But I do think that narrative is important to share as well.
Britt: Lots of things to explore with her. Hopefully we'll have a chance to all, if not just some, but I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
Interview [00:07:44]
[00:07:45]Mya: Welcome Lindsey. How are you doing today?
Lindsey: I'm doing well. Thank you so much. It's so exciting to be here with both of you from sunny, but not sunny today. Southern California.
Academic Origin Story [00:07:55]
Mya: Great. We always start with guests sharing their academic [00:08:00] origin story. How did you decide to pursue a PhD?
Lindsey: In terms of my pathway to a PhD, maybe it's like a lot of people, or maybe it's a unique experience that, I wasn't going into saying I am going to [00:08:15] pursue a PhD. I always thought, the pursuit of knowledge and being able to explore really interesting topics, always appealed to me. I guess in terms of the origin, I don't know if this is relatable or not my topic was [00:08:30] really specific of the Japanese communities in Latin America. So if we rewind, how on earth, would someone get to that point? I think it really goes back to my childhood and the interest and opportunities that I was [00:08:45] exposed to.
I'm fourth generation Japanese American. And both sides of my family are from Hawaii. And even though I was born on the East coast, I was raised in Pasadena, California and I would always make trips back pretty much almost every summer up until high school. So I was [00:09:00] really exposed to the culture and the people of Hawaii and being it's such a diverse and inclusive place, I think it was always instilled in me in many different communities and many different cultures and also being in Southern California being [00:09:15] exposed to those different aspects and communities really shaped my thinking and my interests.
I was really lucky in Grade school, my parents put me in Japanese school on Saturdays. Just because I think my grandparents really wanted me to learn the [00:09:30] language and culture because I'm fourth generation and so they just wanted me to at least be exposed to my ethnic identity.
But then in grad school, I was also exposed to the Spanish language. And I really fell in love with Spanish. When you learn a language as both of that it's not only [00:09:45] language that you're learning about the people, the history, the culture and all the different aspects that make up that. I always knew, I was interested in international affairs, like from fifth grade, I remember we had to cut out international articles from the LA times and come and present in class and do [00:10:00] reports. And we had to pick any country, any region we wanted to report on. And most people might've picked something more common france or Mexico or things that there was more material on, but I picked the Ural Mountains and my mom was like, why are you [00:10:15] picking the Ural Mountains?
And it was because my parents had a really good family friend who was from Brazil, but of Russian descent. And his family came from that area and he was visiting our family at that time. And I was so fascinated by his family's [00:10:30] history when I was 10 years old, that I decided to explore that topic. And, there was no material on that. And so I remember I had to write to the Soviet embassy to get more information. And so that really sparked the international side. And, but it wasn't really until [00:10:45] college that I was able to amalgamate, both the ethnic identity and cultural side of my interests, as well as my academic side, in terms of looking at international affairs and Latin America.
Mya: I liked the fact that [00:11:00] you look back and it looks like it's logical, right? Like it made sense. Like you had always intended to do that. And. It seems like there was a definite core personal interest or personal driver. Would you say that's correct?
Lindsey: Yes. For [00:11:15] sure. I think the personal side, but then when I started looking more into the academic side of things, I realized that there was really such a dearth of knowledge, at least here in the U S there is scholarship that's available in Peru for example, or in [00:11:30] Brazil, but the level of scholarship and in the U S surrounding the topic was very few and far between. And so I thought that would be a niche that I could possibly explore more.
Mya: You mentioned the dearth [00:11:45] of empirical work in the U S or in North America. And there's a two part question that you partially answered already, but this idea of how did you stay knowing that this gap exists or that there wasn't anything there, right? So how did you feel. [00:12:00] Okay. Yes. I want to do this, but then is it worth it?
And the second part of that question outside of the U S did you have a different sense of the value of your work?
Lindsey: To answer the first part of the question I'll just do a quick anecdote that [00:12:15] relates to this, so for my senior thesis at Pomona, I decided to really explore the Japanese Peruvian community. What was interesting is that I was like, okay, if I'm going to look and start exploring the Japanese communities in Latin [00:12:30] America, where am I going to start? So I first language has to be at the forefront because of the lack of scholarship that is available in English that was the main thing. And so I remember I was like, okay let's look, I don't speak [00:12:45] Portuguese at the moment. I can only focus on those communities that are Spanish speaking. So the largest community in South America, that's Spanish speaking is Peru. So I said, okay, this is great. And at the time as well president Fujimori was the president of Peru went from [00:13:00] 1990 to 2000. And so it was right at the end of his presidency.
And so it all these really dynamic interesting factors were appearing. And so I finally went to our library and I was like, okay, I'm going to write the senior thesis in college. [00:13:15] I need resources. I need material. I went there and there was one book, one book on Japanese Peruvians that was written by Amelia Morimoto.
And an only in Spanish at the time, of course you can do interlibrary loan and all that, but in our [00:13:30] library, that is what was there. So I remember checking out the book immediately reading it, cover to cover. And I was like, wow. This scholarship and professor Morimoto is just it turns out the expert on Japanese, Peruvian history and [00:13:45] immigration. What am I going to do? I have so many questions, I have so many things and I just decided to just email her directly and ask if I could get some clarifying answers or if I can get more resources. And what was [00:14:00] amazing is that she responded and she was so kind. And just embracing and, she must have been like, this is such a random email. And the long story short of this is that I talk to my professors at Pomona and I said, [00:14:15] it's awesome that I have this one book and I've been able to be in contact with the author. But I need much more either primary resources or secondary resource to really be able to have a robust conversation, a [00:14:30] robust thesis. And, it was amazing that Pomona was so supportive. They somehow managed to find funding and allowed me to go over winter break. To go to Peru my senior year in college [00:14:45] to go get resources so I flew down to Lima and I met Dr. Morimoto and she was so welcoming but I went to the museum, which she head of , and I took down suitcases two and a half cases with my carry [00:15:00] on and I photocopied almost every archival like material.
I know that was a long story, but the point about the motivation was to try to build bridges and to further expose knowledge about other communities to a [00:15:15] broader audience. Then to add to that part about motivation and we can transition to the PhD part of it. Cause I think that's a big, crucial part that it's very important how one frames the research question cause it could go down many rabbit holes and [00:15:30] what's the feasibility and scope of everything. And so at the time when I was thinking about. First year of PhD, like what exact topic am I going to pursue?
Am I going to continue with Japanese Peruvians? What new perspective can I bring? And so I was starting [00:15:45] to look at, okay, maybe the migration of Japanese Peruvians to Japan. That might be an interesting angle and to look at how that impacts the community back there.
But again, I think faculty at NYU or were saying there just still wasn't enough [00:16:00] scholarship at the time to really go into that particular topic . So then the motivation part was , I'm the person if I see a challenge or if I see something that I'm like, this can be done, but you have to really just refocus and reframe your [00:16:15] thought I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep trying to pursue that. And so that's how I switched to Japanese Brazilians, to be honest, because there was so much more scholarship. I think again, the language places issue, because I didn't speak Portuguese at the time and so I wasn't [00:16:30] privy to all of the literature and the scholarship that was out there. And I had to learn Portuguese really quickly in a year, basically a year and a half to be able to pursue this topic. Cause once I found out. All the literature that all the [00:16:45] Brazilian scholars and Japan as well have been doing, I was like, okay, this is the goldmine. I can do this. I can work with this. And I can add my own perspective to it. So I guess, I don't know if that answers the first part of the question, but I think it's when you see that there is that slight [00:17:00] possibility of still pursuing something. And even though there might be particular little mini roadblocks, I think that kept me so motivated to just find the appropriate ways to try to and look at a topic that I think is [00:17:15] really fascinating. Just because we're so intertwined internationally and with globalization and the diaspora is just interesting.
On Finding and Receiving Support in Graduate School [00:17:21]
Britt: So Lindsay you've shared in some other conversations about how by and large your graduate school experience and your intellectual pursuits [00:17:30] have been very positive. They're not recalled with a lot of heavy weight. And even just in your retelling of your explorations, it's clearly still a very energizing thing. So I'm curious what do you think helped to contribute to you having a positive experience? Have you thought much about that and to [00:17:45] what degree you initiated that or, and, or the context that you were in?
Lindsey: That's a great question, Britt. So I think it's multifaceted, I think one can have all the dreams and the passions and whatnot, but you're still working within a structure. You're [00:18:00] still having to work with requirements you're still having to work with just for your own program, but also, just the scope of your project. Is it feasible to do this abroad? Is it feasible to do what you want to [00:18:15] do within a certain timeframe, resources, all of that.
So it's many fold, but I think the main thing honestly, is the support one gets. And I think that is both in your personal life, as well as your academic life, because, yes, you are the [00:18:30] individual who is pursuing this degree, but you're not yourself on one Island, you're in many systems, within your own personal life, like your own family or your own friends, your own community and, honestly, if I did not have the faculty support [00:18:45] and my family support none of this could have happened at all. And I'd say that it's really crucial to find, even though, so there might not be faculty in your program that have expertise in the topic [00:19:00] that you are exactly pursuing I think that the support and belief in you in general is so important.
The faculty at NYU were very supportive and flexible in looking at what international exchange and [00:19:15] international education holistically looks and the impact of various forces like migration and identity and everything. So they were very Supportive of that. And when you pick your committee and you, when you pick people, as I said, There's no one who was [00:19:30] working on Japanese Brazilians.
So you have to dissect that and say okay, I need someone whose expertise in migration. I need someone, maybe he's in sociology who has a background in identity. Whether it's national, ethnic, other social identities, I need someone with, [00:19:45] qualitative methods and et cetera.
So you just dissect that and my chair is a historian. So I think, that, that was really helpful to not only have the faculty buying and support but then also you yourself [00:20:00] have to find avenues to support your research that, it differs across universities, right?
The level of support. And so I was just really grateful Like wholeheartedly grateful to other financial [00:20:15] support mechanisms that I had to continue to pursue this cause you know, it's a big endeavor and you can't do it alone. You have to have the backing financially and academically. And just the people who believe in you that you [00:20:30] can do this. And what I think is also important is that you also have, depending on one's research, I have to have the support of the communities where I was going to and living with. . So I'm just really indebted to all the people and for the, on all the [00:20:45] people in Japan and then of course, in New York,
On Pursuing an Interdisciplinary, Unconventional Degree [00:20:47]
Mya: We know each other from the master's program at NYU in international education, and it's an interdisciplinary program. And so did have support from your committee across all these different [00:21:00] disciplines to be able to pursue that kind of project was very fortunate. And I think, the expectation of the Academy is that when you get a PhD teach somewhere, use it somehow. And we spent a lot of time talking about your research, [00:21:15] but I think, one thing that's of interest to me is that, with an interdisciplinary PhD, what was your vision? What did you want to do with it? If you had an idea at all, I'm not going to assume or say that you did.
Lindsey: There actually are some challenges to [00:21:30] having an interdisciplinary PhD.
Maybe I can just delve in this out really quickly. Is that going back to when you were applying to fellowships and scholarships it's usually straight social science disciplines. It's really difficult to find outside funding for such an interdisciplinary field. Cause we're [00:21:45] like a very interesting branch of education. It's hard to find fellowship for internationalization within education itself as a discipline. So that's why one has to be very creative and try to find other ways of finding fellowships or [00:22:00] funding based on particular aspects of what you're doing. And so that was one challenge for sure.
But in terms of the vision at NYU what I was really grateful for is they really emphasize that students from the program are able to [00:22:15] function and contribute across several pathways, several avenues, like the administrative side of our field, the teaching side of our field and research. So it was guided that you teach, at some point, if you, if that's possible in [00:22:30] the program. So I was really lucky to be a TA for two years. So we have the teaching aspect and then of course you're doing your research and then they also had encouraged you to the administrative side because with international ed, there's so many career opportunities from the administrative [00:22:45] side. I was really grateful to be exposed to all three pathways. But when you graduate is it possible to do all three? And honestly I loved all three. I was always given advice that it might be easier to get a faculty position to [00:23:00] be able to teach and do research. And then, if do a center or you do other things, you can do the administrative side, it's very difficult to do it the other way to not be a faculty member and do administrative work, but try to teach or do [00:23:15] research when you're not a faculty.
I had to come to that crossroads, do I go into the Academy? Or do I pursue other avenues on the administrative side, but yet still be able to do parts of that. It took a while [00:23:30] to grapple with that. And I ultimately decided, I wanted to go the, non faculty route and be able to work in administrators. I am working in study abroad and work in other avenues, but yet I've been very grateful for the [00:23:45] opportunity to continue the research aspect of that.
I've come to the conclusion. It's very difficult to do all three avenues of teaching, research and administrative, if you're not necessarily in as a faculty member [00:24:00] it's a little more difficult, I think it's possible for sure. But it's a lot.
On Doing (or not Doing) the Academic Thing [00:24:03]
Mya: At the point, in which you were making that ,decision was there any sense when you decided to do not the Academy, Did you feel like you had, let a program down or [00:24:15] not been what you thought you were supposed to be? What was the emotional moment, if that makes sense? Because I've gone through that again, not wanting to project onto others, but There's something in the decision making in the moment that I also find, [00:24:30] fascinating.
Lindsey: For sure. I think it really varies by discipline. For international education, when we see all the different pathways that our alumni have taken it, I think it's reassuring to see that not everybody [00:24:45] does go into the Academy. And what does that mean? So I think again, like a if it's for there's certain programs where you see, gosh, like the majority are going to the Academy and I'm, an outlier.
I think that's a different story which I can't attest to since that's not my experience, but [00:25:00] that's why I think for international ed in particular, because there's many different pathways and careers and avenues that people with PhDs can pursue.
And that we've seen that over the years, that was really reassuring because, yes, [00:25:15] of course I went through that Oh my gosh, I just went through, X number of years doing this and is the expectation for me to go teach and go into the Academy or am I able to have the [00:25:30] values that are important to me? The impact that I want to make. Can I do that in other ways that will fulfill my passions and hopefully I can help, others. And I think I've been able to do that in a sense, like I'm still in higher education [00:25:45] and I'm still working with students and I'm still advising students. And for me to be able to see their growth and their transformation, after coming back from abroad and then still being able to do scholarship and research on the side, I've been very fortunate. I know [00:26:00] that I've been very grateful for those opportunities, but definitely there were those moments that you're like, Oh my gosh should I have done that way?
But I think with conversations with people, with hearing other people's experiences and then just seeing in [00:26:15] our particular field, that you can pursue many different, whether it's in government, whether it's in, NGO, nonprofit work, whether it's in higher education, that you can still use the training that you've gotten from your degree, but implement [00:26:30] it in different ways across disciplines and across fields.
I think that was the purpose of our program to be able to transition and go between different sectors in different fields. And I'll say like the teaching experience that I had has helped me [00:26:45] in different ways. I never thought it could, or the research experience that I've done in different capacities or the, so you, the skills and the things that you learn hopefully can be applied in different ways across sectors.
On The Hustle [00:26:56]
Britt: So Lindsay I'm curious about the hustle, it's [00:27:00] something that's not really called out explicitly in doctoral pursuits, but it's such a vital part of, I think being successful in your program. It's a hustle and it's highly competitive irrespective of your discipline, because [00:27:15] there's a limited number of TA ships or RA ships or Funding, whether that be at the institution or at the national international level. And you are a business of one. So the need to be entrepreneurial is actually something that I [00:27:30] think many successful PhD holders have learned, but they don't really see that in that way. And I know this because both, when I was in grad school toward the end, and then also in my early days being a faculty person and grad [00:27:45] students, learning about how I had basically funded my graduate education through different forms of, scholarships, fellowships assistance, ships, and so on. And I had always just looked at it like it's a hustle. And I, I didn't come straight from undergrad to grad [00:28:00] school. So I had worked in done entrepreneurship, basically in creating my own organizations and businesses.
So it came very natural to me knowing that if I don't go out there and hustle and shake the trees, no one else is going to do that for me. And it's not enough for me just to apply for stuff. I need to get it. the purpose of [00:28:15] doing it well, this is to secure the funding, not just to apply for the funding, which is unfortunately, I think where people put their target out, which is the wrong place to be.
So anyway I gather from listening to you that you learned a lot about the hustle and you learned [00:28:30] how to do it well because you were passionate and are passionate about the mission of what you are, your company of one was trying to bring out to the world. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what you think enabled you to be successful with that?
Lindsey: So [00:28:45] interesting cause I never thought of it all. It's so interesting to hear you talk about securing fellowship scholarship as a entrepreneurial, but also it's true. It is a hustle in the sense that. Yeah, what happens to, I don't [00:29:00] get it? What are you going to do? What's going to happen? Am I not going to be able to do this anymore? And then it just goes, bye bye. And all your hard work, it goes through that. So I guess there's a couple of things.
What I tell my students actually is I say, every opportunity that you have that you're [00:29:15] doing they're just, they're building blocks. Every opportunity matters, whether it's volunteer, whether it's co-curricular, whether it's extracurricular, whether it's academic, because when you sit down to write these which is which is a great skill that I think everyone, [00:29:30] no matter what, discipline, no matter what field you're in should have is either grant writing skills or just being able to put your thoughts in a very coherent, structured way to get a hundred pages down to five pages. The way to write and [00:29:45] frame. Your passions. Cause people can have passions and interests all over the place, but to be able to funnel that and in a convincing concise way, I think is a really important skill that, that people should have.
When I tell students to, especially when I have advice [00:30:00] for fellowships and whatnot,it's really important to, to frame and know the meaning of the organization or fellowship or scholarship that you're applying you too. Like how, what is important to that organization and how is [00:30:15] your interests going to match that, but how can you frame it in a certain way that is going to be fulfilling all the boxes in a particular way. And I also think selecting your topic too, because I was just very lucky. [00:30:30] So to be honest, when I applied for a Fulbright, I'd never in a million years thought I was going to get. I did not think I was going to go back to, to Peru and live there for awhile and explore this topic further. And so as I tell my students, I say, it's really just any experience that you do have you [00:30:45] just take the particulars of that experience and frame it in the way that matches not only your desire, your passions, but then also unfortunately, or fortunately it has to match the mission and the objectives of the organization that you're looking [00:31:00] to.
So for me, I had to say okay, for my topic, I need to do X, Y, Z. for me, it was language. Like I needed to learn Portuguese, how am I going to learn Portuguese besides taking courses at NYU? I need to find funding to be able to do that over [00:31:15] the summer to get up to par, get fluency, to be able to pursue this. I knew I had to be in Brazil for a long time. I had to be in Japan for a long time.
And how's it going to do this? And so I think it's just being creative and going to the places that you need to go to, to find these [00:31:30] resources going to the career center, talking to faculty, talking to outside networks, talking to two people who are able to provide those in, then taking the time to do that it takes time, you can't do these overnight. It just, it takes a long time and to think, and [00:31:45] reflect and rewrite and do iterations of it.
Britt: I didn't realize how prepared I was to be an executive director of a nonprofit organization as the result of being a graduate student, trying to fund a PhD. Because you're having to do [00:32:00] all the same things, but on a, obviously a bigger scale with other kinds of fundraising responsibilities. But I can remember in the summer before I was to do my field work and I was still waiting to hear back from, I was going to be funded to [00:32:15] do my field work in Japan, and I didn't really have any alternatives. And I remember having a moment where I went to that place of what if I don't get this. And it was just too much emotional laboring to even go there. So I just says okay, if that [00:32:30] happens, then I'll confronted. But right now that's not helpful at all. So the ability to take on risk, the ability to think creatively. And I think your point is a really good one. What on the surface as an opportunity, or it doesn't look [00:32:45] like an opportunity is an opportunity. And part of the entrepreneurial credo is that everything is an opportunity.
And again, there's these experiences we have in grad school, just from the place of hustling and making it happen that are such translatable skills [00:33:00] into really any place. But I think certainly in the realm of a job that requires a multifaceted creative problem solving resource oriented framework,
Lindsey: Totally. You just never know where things lead. You never know the contacts that [00:33:15] you make now, you don't know what will be in 20 years, you might be, in Germany one day or you might be co-authoring something with somebody one day. It's really important to just keep those connections and alive and established. And you just [00:33:30] never know where things can go.
Mya: To your point too, about, applying to grants or applying to these fellowships or whatever the goal is to get them right. And you run up to the line of, okay, I hope I get it, but then what if [00:33:45] I don't right. Because I think the other thing too, is that there is also part of the story that includes yes.
Taking risks, but what if there is a failure? and I was not perhaps effective and making a strong case [00:34:00] for why, interdisciplinary research and study abroad. Decision-making made sense from a straight disciplinary sociological perspective or other things. And my hustling for funding was often [00:34:15] outside of the Academy, right? So like multiple jobs and, TA ships and RA ships at the same time because I needed money. But for me it was also important that yes, the building blocks of getting rejected from a social science research council or [00:34:30] NIH or NSF was useful because I know it with some of those, you can get the feedback and see why you didn't get it. And so the notes in the comments about the ways in which they evaluated my applications greatly informed the way [00:34:45] that I created applications for scholarship programs that I created in my last position.
And thinking about equity and inclusion and how things were evaluated. And so I think celebrating the success of the hustle. But also recognizing [00:35:00] that even sometimes in spite of the hustle at the time, there could be failures, but, staying, having the faith in yourself and the determination or the perseverance or believing that what you have to [00:35:15] contribute is important.
And that belief will be rewarded in some way down the line. I think is also part of that narrative that I think often gets overlooked.
On the Translatable Skills of a Graduate Training [00:35:25]
Britt: I think what we're all really speaking to is some of the, just put a [00:35:30] pragmatic line under it is the translatable experiences and skills that you develop through this process of pursuing an advanced degree and whether or not you secure said grant or the hustles that [00:35:45] you secure are directly related to your PR professional pursuits. They all are adding up to being something significant. There's no shortage of very practical things that you might not be learning in the classroom. In fact, you're probably not, but the classroom is [00:36:00] driving a lot of. These other learnings that make you, I think very, I don't know, marketable might be too strong, but at least qualified to succeed in many things,
Lindsey: And to this point, is that the skills that you're going to learn in grad school is so important in terms of teamwork, right? You're [00:36:15] working on projects together and building a community. I think that was really important to you because grad school is tough. It's hard. You have so much, you're doing, you have exams, you have papers, you have comps, you have your research, you have everything else in between. If you're [00:36:30] working, part-time working all of that and doing other things, applying to things. It's just a huge endeavor.
And so I've always looked at Yes, it's your individual pursuit, but in order to do that, it's really important to find community. However, you can find that community, right? Whether it's with [00:36:45] your cohort or with faculty or with family or with other things, you just really need that. And it was so important to find people just like we do now in our jobs. Like you, you find associations, you find working groups, you find things that, if there's groups where, [00:37:00] if you're really passionate about a DEI work, you will find that community cause you want to support one another. You want to exchange ideas, you want to improve what you have and make it better. And in part in exchange ideas, and it's the same in grad school. Like you, you needed that as well. Like you needed to [00:37:15] find people who either had similar interests or could help support you and whatnot. So there's just a lot of things that you can learn. I think in grad school, both in and out of the classroom that will definitely help and shape whatever career one pursues, I think afterwards,
Mya: I'd never [00:37:30] actually considered the solitary nature of the graduate experience in that way.
Actually. I've never thought of it as being a lonely pursuit other than feeling sometime like lonely in your program. If you're doing a topic that isn't [00:37:45] very common, right? That is an experience. I think that. It's very clearly identifiable and relatable to what I feel like was my experience, but considering that there are people who are, navigating the graduate [00:38:00] experience and then feeling just lonely or solitary or alone as a human being.
Lindsey: I was very fortunate to have the infrastructure support, but I feel for those that might not have that's something to really consider. Cause it's a lot for [00:38:15] people to work through to go out there and live, engage and do what one needs to do to get that. And it takes time and it takes again like a whole slew of people and community. Especially [00:38:30] doing international work you just have to be okay.
Britt: I wonder if you can talk a little bit about Your interdisciplinary PhD, because it's connected to this idea of loneliness and, admittedly academic disciplines are very [00:38:45] territorial.
And so by electing an interdisciplinary path, you're both everywhere and nowhere at the same time intellectually. And if you don't have that canonical anchor point how that can, perhaps depending on the direction [00:39:00] you're headed, you haven't been appropriately discipline in whatever canonical, spanking machine that everybody else has gone through. And so in some ways it feels like when someone pursues a PhD like that, which for much of the [00:39:15] sort of reformation, progressive language around PhDs and opening them up, so they are less territorial , at the same time, some of the fear is that if we un-tether ourselves from these disciplinary frameworks, Then where are we and what are [00:39:30] we? And what's the value of a PhD and blah, blah, blah. And so by, in some that you may not have seen it like this. And I apologize if it's projecting onto you, but it's one of the things that I've often wondered is that it would be like a a self-induced [00:39:45] marginalization, so to speak where from the Academy, you're saying, okay, I'm not going to be a part of that.
I'm going to live above it and through it. And then what might go into that decision as the result?
Lindsey: It's a very interesting question [00:40:00] because. to be honest, like I never really thought like that. I think when I was in it, just because for me, I just knew the career path that I wanted to choose, that the interdisciplinary PhD was going to be [00:40:15] appropriate if that makes sense because in international exchange, international education, especially study abroad and higher ed, if that's the route that you are wanting to go that it's understood that they look for, a masters or PhD in [00:40:30] international education and people in the field are aware of what that might entail. So I think it really just depends on the field that you might want might be going to.
Mya: Your point about, the chief challenge right now, is [00:40:45] the ability to communicate the value of a PhD, it doesn't matter what kind it is within the Academy, but also outside the Academy.
So for me having a traditional disciplinary PhD, going into interdisciplinary [00:41:00] place, like international education, when I was applying for jobs, they were like, a sociology PhD, like, how does that, even though my dissertation was very specifically on international ed and study abroad, just being able to get people to see past that.
So [00:41:15] this communication piece, I think, is really critical and we haven't figured that piece out yet, whether it's the Academy or outside the Academy, but I think. The ability to communicate to what Britt said before, the skills that you've learned as [00:41:30] an advanced grad student, not just in the classroom, but all of these other interpersonal communication cross-cultural practical concrete skills that come with the experience that can be applicable, [00:41:45] not just in teaching positions, is something that I think both the Academy and the outside world in certain sectors, I think there are certain separate sectors that recognize the value because to your point, there's a history of alumni and people who have come out with [00:42:00] those experiences or with that credential that have succeeded and done well.
Lindsey: It's almost like we have to Liberal Art-ify. I don't even know if that's a word, graduate school, cause that's what we teach in the liberal arts, that it's being able to have a [00:42:15] rich learning experience of looking at things at different perspectives, different skills and how you can apply that. Not necessarily in your particular field. So for example just from anecdotes, so there are a lot of students who are econ majors a Pomona who wants to go into [00:42:30] consulting. But I know from friends that companies are looking for not necessarily econ majors to fulfill these consulting roles. They want, someone who might be a natural science major or STEM major or a humanities, because they [00:42:45] bring a very different perspective to problem solving or to create a thinking.
And it's so it's what we're talking about now is that. Careers or programs, it might be valuable to see things from multi-disciplinary perspectives and [00:43:00] yes, it is important for it to have a solid grounding on something. But I think it's also important to have the interdisciplinary, because when we go out into these different careers, there are so multifaceted and you have to know so many different things in so [00:43:15] many different skills anyway, that I think those types of things help to contribute. even though your job is not necessarily going to be assessment evaluation or budgeting. Those are really important skills that you're going to have to know in your job, whatever job you're doing, to be able [00:43:30] to assess, evaluate and the financial aspects of things.
Britt: So we're getting close to our time, but I have one last question for you, Lindsey. If you had the power to wave a magic wand, I wonder if you have one or [00:43:45] two ideas that come to mind how you would reform the Academy or academic life.
Lindsey: I think having funding is just really important. I know that's not the end all be all, but at the end of the day it's helpful to have [00:44:00] secured funding for all students. So again, this goes back to ideas of access and inclusivity and opportunityand if, one can not find that necessarily externally that there should be hopefully mechanisms [00:44:15] internally,at one's institution to be able to have those opportunities for students because it can oftentimes limit or change the trajectory of a person's passion or interest or topic. And that's hard. Cause if [00:44:30] you're so passionate and you've been pursuing something for so long and you want to do that, but you're prohibited by certain means that's hard, that's tough. And that's a lot of stress, I think for a lot of students.
And then I think another piece is variety of [00:44:45] opportunities within your program. I was very fortunate to be able to have done the teaching research and administrative part within my program because it was set up that way.
I was able to work with faculty on different institutes and different projects. But that's [00:45:00] not necessarily the case across the board. And as you said, Britt, I think both of you had alluded to before, there's only a certain amount, it's not like an infinite amount of those available. So I think if we can create more opportunities for graduate students to be [00:45:15] able to learn the different skills, different experiences. But for all, the idea of inclusivity and access I think is really important.
I think that last part is to also build into programs mechanisms for [00:45:30] community and support. We've talked about this many times today, but it's a really essential component of a program because I know when people go into, people are coming at a PhD from all different parts. I really do feel it's so [00:45:45] important to have established mechanisms from both faculty and both students side, both administrative side to create different levels of support that's needed because it's a very intense, [00:46:00] gratifying, amazing experience. But alongside that, you need that support along the way to, be successful in however you define that.
Britt: Great. I think we've come to the end of our time together, but [00:46:15] I want to thank you again, Lindsey for making time to speak with us and to share your experiences I think your creativity in the pursuit of your degree. And then to be able to align your personal interests and passions with the pursuit of this [00:46:30] degree, and then beyond that itself, very inspiring. I'm certain that our listeners will be able to take that and be able to better align their own academic interests with wherever they're headed. I really appreciate your time and all the things you shared.
Lindsey: No, I appreciate it. Thank you so [00:46:45] much for having a wonderful conversation.
And I look forward to hearing other people's stories and experiences.
Mya: And as it's always fun to see you and to talk. And there are some things that I learned about you today that I didn't know. Even though [00:47:00] we've known each other for a really long time. And thank you so much for just the energy, the enthusiasm, and to Britt's point, the encouraging nature of your story, about the ways in which you can be creative, the ways in [00:47:15] which people can navigate the challenges will resonate and encourage people who might at this point feel discouraged or alone. so I thank you for that honesty and the and putting that energy out.
Reflection [00:47:27]
[00:47:30]It's always fascinating to hear the different stories of people and their pathways into graduate schools, through graduate school and out. [00:47:45] And I feel like, this conversation really focused a lot on both her entry and what she did while she was there.
And it was the discussion around [00:48:00] interdisciplinary-ness, whether it's for the field that she was in or just the combining of all of her interests, really resonated with me in a way that I hadn't considered because for me in the work that I'm [00:48:15] doing now is the first time I really feel like all of these disparate parts of my career experiences and knowledge are coming together.
And to see that. And hear how that happened for somebody at an earlier point in their journey was really [00:48:30] interesting. And gave me an opportunity to think about how different people's paths are.
Britt: I had a few moments where I found myself both reflecting on and remembering things that I hadn't thought about for a long time. And that was just on a personal level [00:48:45] really illuminating. for me, one of the big takeaways was this real strong sense of what it takes to succeed in graduate school, from the hustling around entrepreneurial side of things, which it is rarely discussed openly.
[00:49:00] And at the same time, I think it also persists even as a faculty where, whether you're getting research grants or otherwise. And it's just so clear as day to me about what you need to do. To hustle around and make your [00:49:15] little company of one successful there's marketing there's communication.
There's branding. There's the whole thing that especially those of us coming from more critical social sciences might scoff at the pseudo capitalism [00:49:30] of such, such an endeavor. But at the same time, I had to do that. to be successful in fortunately I was able to do that, so I'm really taking away a lot of that.
And I didn't really make the connection when I asked the question, but just even being a interdisciplinary PhD and having [00:49:45] To really craft your whole curriculum. It's not really set up there for you, you really have to be in the driver's seat. So that's really the most dominant thing that's present for me now in the wake of the conversation I just think that the enthusiasm that Lindsay had, or that was [00:50:00] sparked in the beginning of her undergraduate, but I, but also track back to connections to Hawaii and also Japanese American community in the LA area. But just how that interests as she continued to poke at it just opened [00:50:15] up more doors and more curiosities and new languages and new countries and new pursuits.
I think as a whole, a really inspirational story of being able to Follow your interests, follow your passion.
Mya: So the idea about hustle is [00:50:30] something that brings up to me ideas about, the ad hoc nature for some of us that. Was required to get through. So the example that you had given of your student who should she put nanny on her [00:50:45] resume? That's what I did. That was one of my hustles to get through graduate school from New York to Wisconsin. Cause that was something that had flexible hours and had good pay and to Lindsey's point about her magic wand and changing funding structures. Graduate [00:51:00] students even if they receive funding are funded potentially at poverty level, or, if you get a big NSF grant or something like that maybe match in entry-level salary of an undergraduate or something like that.
But yeah. And like I didn't go straight [00:51:15] through either. So I had worked for a few years and had a real salary and then came back to grad school and, had to live on, two thirds of a salary, if that. And the idea that the hustle for me, wasn't just.
[00:51:30] academic, but also financial. And the fact that I felt like few people in my department had to do that, or that there's some sort of stigma around hustling as a graduate student. There's this idea that being a grad [00:51:45] student or being a TA or the way in which, you exist. Is a certain way. And because I had, all these extra jobs prevented me from being able to do things like work with faculty members on their projects, or build my own research, outside of the [00:52:00] things that I to do for class or for my dissertation directly. I think this notion of hustle and actually being able to have a conversation about it was a big takeaway for me and validating right. that other people are hustling in different ways. We're all hustling in some way, [00:52:15] shape or form. But feeling by having the conversation for me, the stigma was removed.
Britt: It's making me remember that in my program they liked to talk about funding, but funding was TA ships, RA ships.
And I remember being in [00:52:30] the program saying that's Working, not funding. I get it. But that's a euphamism for working, now isn't it? Frankly in some of the cases, like really crappy jobs, being TAs for these huge intro level [00:52:45] courses where, you've got 25 undergraduates at a section and you've got two or three sections and five. Yeah. And they don't want to be there. And you're having, it's just, not good, certainly not great. It's almost [00:53:00] like a Rite of passage, more than an actual professional development.
Mya: And you have to do it because we did it.
Britt: I'm getting back to Lindsey. Certainly I wouldn't suggest at all that what she was able to do in grad school was easy and I'm sure she would never use that framing of it [00:53:15] and the way she was able to take advantage of things like FLAS and Fulbrights and other things. It was just a great reminder that there are resources out there. I was able to get some help with language study and other things, and they were great.
Mya: I got one for summer for Japan. [00:53:30] I think her retelling and the gratitude that she had for people that were in her corner and helped her along and supported her and connected her even without any benefit to themselves. And sometimes the happenstances of sitting [00:53:45] down next to somebody in that turning into a conference, it made me think about some of the people who did that for me, that I don't think about as often, that I don't remember. And some of the serendipityof grad school too. And we started [00:54:00] off talking in pre-flection about just the positive experience and The idea there is for me, I think in my grad story, a lot of trauma, but there is some joy too.
And I think being able to have this conversation with her to be reminded of that is a big takeaway [00:54:15] from me today. being reminded of the support and encouragement that I did have, and the people who were there and who advocated for me which is, it's a nice reminder.
Britt: Unfortunately it's very human nature to have the more traumatic experiences override the [00:54:30] positive ones. Which is we're trying to be more intentional with gratitude to help override that. And when you're anchored in that place of appreciation, you start to see other things, specifically I'm talking for me right now [00:54:45] about my academic journey, but I think absent of that for me, It is almost, and this is just for me it's intellectually lazy to broad brush stroke it as a negative experience, to focus so much on [00:55:00] the the slights and the grievances and the problems of which there were many.
But at the same time, as you said, there were a number of people that perhaps I need to sit with those memories a bit more and Think about the generosity of spirit of answering that [00:55:15] email. When I sent the email as a prospective grad student and they took time to respond and respond in a very thoughtful way and to respect and honor my curiosity, but also Let's just say arrogance about what I wanted to do as a result of study, I [00:55:30] appreciate that it wasn't summarily dismissed as I probably, if I'm being honest, I might do now .
Mya: And in my work helping people to see the nuances that exist in the world and see like all things, not just in black and white, but shades of gray it's [00:55:45] human nature to make things. Simpler, it's simpler to have black and white than to have black on one end white on the other end in the, the spectrum of 16 shades of gray in the middle. Because it's a lot to take in. And I think to your point about broad brush strokes [00:56:00] about the experiences that, the memories of the gray, I don't know about you, but they strengthened my belief of what the training and the program did for me. Yes. I got superb training and [00:56:15] intellectual stuff, but there's all of these different pieces, whether it's the challenges or the support or other things that have shaped me in ways I don't often think about, or with today have actually sat and thought about and have helped. And, in [00:56:30] thinking of self-confidence. just strengthened my belief that, there was something there that helped me become this person that I can now point to as, a source of this outcome. That to me also is just wow, [00:56:45]
Britt: I think it speaks to the really remarkable nature of memory and experience where It has this dynamism and almost elasticity, where as you revisit it at different parts in your life, how it continues to feed, [00:57:00] and it's not like a full metabolism, it metabolizes into something else. But I think there is something to be said that if it just stagnates and it just sits there, to use the sort of digestive metaphor.
there's like food in your intestine that just sits there. It goes from becoming [00:57:15] something potentially nourishing to becoming something that could be harmful. And I think there's something there about memory and being able to revisit these things and how we take a, a reflection on some of these things that happen to us and we're able to then bring it to the [00:57:30] present and have it feed us in a different way.
Ultimately, for me, these conversations are an opportunity to do that with some of my memories around broadly defined academic life. So I appreciate the angle that we took today with Lindsey , because I think [00:57:45] it is Equally as nourishing as any other entry point might be.
And it offers that very important perspective of what reflection can do,
Mya: Wow good convo. Good things to think about and just, some things to go home with and just sit with for awhile.